Forums: Advice: Rallying Anthem vs Dirge of Doom (2025)

You should also take into account the composition (pun intended) of your party.

For example, if the party has a Rogue with Dread Striker and a shortbow, that makes Dirge of Doom a lot more powerful than the Dirge is on its own.

The short answer is really "who else in your party is putting up Frightened?" Because if the answer is "no one", Dirge is arguably the strongest composition cantrip in the game. It lowers enemy offense AND defense and works on almost everything without a check or save. It's almost like shaving off a full level off everything you can hit with it.

Rallying Anthem is good, but it's not "make every enemy in range worse at everything with few exceptions and almost no way to defend against it" good. It also has to compete with Courageous Anthem for actions (and Fortissimo).

Dirge's main weakness is that because it's putting up Frightened, if someone else is doing that then it loses value, in which case something else is better. So your party composition matters here.

This can also be somewhat level dependent, because at high level a Bard themselves can cast something like Tempest of Shades or Weird and also use Rallying Anthem (because Eternal Composition is amazing) and if you're able to AoE Frighten everything on your first turn like that, Dirge loses some value though it can be great in a longer fight.

Finally, Dirge has a shorter range and requires you to get closer. This often won't matter, but if you really like being able to hang back farther than 30', factor that in.

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I would imagine both would be used when your party is outnumbered on the battlefield, meanwhile courageous anthem would be used when your party outnumbers the enemy.

I think this is the other way around. Rallying Anthem is great when you're fighting a single very strong enemy as it will have high strikes and high save DCs on its abilities. That means the bonus is reducing your teams chance to be hit AND crit. Crit failing saves against boss monsters is really bad.

Against large number of weaker enemies, those numbers are both lower and you probably aren't being crit/crit failing except on a nat 1/20, which doesn't change.

You can compensate for Rallying Anthem with Bless or Bane, which are cheap and partially provide the effects of Courageous Anthem and Dirge of Doom. They are not as broad, but they do not compete for actions and your composition spell and are very cheap to buy/make as scrolls. As for whether it is better to use any of these 3 composition spells, it will depend a lot on each situation.

The Total Package wrote:

Ohh, I was thinking with Fortissimo and Rallying Anthem you could extend it for an additional round with a strike, on that second round I can now cast Fear (3), which would be a lot stronger than just Dirge, no?

If you're fighting packs of enemies, Fear 3 is a great spell. If you also need a strike in the same turn, you need to be in position to do that without a move action or also have Haste. Super cool, very powerful combo though, and the resistance from Anthem will help in this situation!

This is much less effective against big single target encounter foes, who are much more likely to resist the fear and also much harder for you to land that strike on (and can lay a beating on you in response).

Consider that on a single big enemy you can Dirge and then Synesthesia, which is applying Frightened before they roll their save against an absolutely crippling spell. Because Dirge has no save to resist it and is 1 action, you're effectively helping yourself hit the hardest targets with spells that can end fights if you land them.

TBH - Rallying Anthem is good. I think Dirge is better, but there's no bad pick here. If you like the Fortissimo Rallying sustain with a strike plan, take it. You'll have fun with it. :)

Hmm interesting, I read in a popular guide the following for Rallying Anthem "Against multiple weaker opponents (or just when you’re outnumbered), Inspire Defense is superior to Inspire Courage because the damage resistance will apply many times."

I also read this for Dirge of Doom "Dirge of Doom is better and times when Inspire Courage is better. If your party is doing more attack actions, stick with Inspire Courage. If the enemy is doing more attacking, use Dirge of Doom."

The Total Package wrote:

Ohh, I was thinking with Fortissimo and Rallying Anthem you could extend it for an additional round with a strike, on that second round I can now cast Fear (3), which would be a lot stronger than just Dirge, no?

Fortissimo doesn't change the sequence of actions in practice. In fact, if you pass the Fortissimo test, you'll get a good AC bonus and you can extend it with an attack in the following round, and you can cast Fear in the same turn that you cast Fortissimo + Rallying Anthem, which can impose a very severe penalty on one or more targets (it depends on the rank of your Fear).

But it's that point I mentioned, if there are several enemies that by default are not a threat to the group individually, but that in a group can be a problem, why are you focusing on defending yourself from them instead of killing them right away and reducing their strength by reducing their numbers?

This combination of Fortissimo + Rallying Anthem and Fear makes sense if you have a boss with a very good hit rate, to restrict his chances of hitting and critical hits, but in other situations it can simply be an overkill.

The advantage of a Dirge of Doom + Bless/Heightened Heroism/Girzanje's March is that it doesn't check. It always works.

The Total Package wrote:

Hmm interesting, I read in a popular guide the following for Rallying Anthem "Against multiple weaker opponents (or just when you’re outnumbered), Inspire Defense is superior to Inspire Courage because the damage resistance will apply many times."

This is not necessarily true.

If you pay attention to creatures, just like the striking rune, they do not necessarily gain more damage because they are 1 or 2 levels stronger.

In other words, in terms of damage reduction, it is not usually that significant, unless the creatures are much weaker. In most cases, the hit and critical hit are more relevant.

The Total Package wrote:

I also read this for Dirge of Doom "Dirge of Doom is better and times when Inspire Courage is better. If your party is doing more attack actions, stick with Inspire Courage. If the enemy is doing more attacking, use Dirge of Doom."

It actually depends more on your party than the enemy.

If your party is primarily martial, it will obviously benefit more than a party that is primarily spellcasting.

But the same goes for Dirge of Doom, if the number of enemies affected is much larger than the party, it will be much more effective.

The problem is that rank 3 Fear affects 5 creatures, so unless it is a case with 6 or more enemies, Dirge of Doom will not be much better.

It is like I said before, it depends on what spells you have available to use.

In the end it's just math and considering whether the enemy can hit or be hit by a difference greater than 10 when choosing which spells to apply.

SuperBidi wrote:

I wouldn't take Dirge of Doom because it's a rule nightmare. I'm not sure there's any table able to play it properly considering how it doesn't make any sense.

What is the rule nightmare? I have two bards in my Strength of Thousands campaign leveling up to 6th level, and I suggested that the players look at this thread for comparisons.

I see potential for table variance. Does the frightened condition end with leaving the area of effect or does it continue to the end of the affected creature's turn? But that is not a full nightmare, because I can make a decision about my table.

Dirge of Doom [one-action] Cantrip 3
Uncommon, Bard, Cantrip, Composition, Concentrate, Emotion, Fear, Mental
Source Player Core pg. 370 2.0
Area 30-foot emanation
Duration 1 round
Enemies within the area are frightened 1. They can't reduce their frightened value below 1 while they remain in the area.

EDIT: I found the threads Dirge of Doom Frightened Duration and Dirge of Doom and Bravery. Anything else?

SuperBidi wrote:

I wouldn't take Dirge of Doom because it's a rule nightmare. I'm not sure there's any table able to play it properly considering how it doesn't make any sense.

Seems fairly straightforward to me. As long you're inside the aura, you maintain the condition and it doesn't drop normally. Once you get out, the condition works normally. Is that the issue?

Lightning Raven wrote:

SuperBidi wrote:

I wouldn't take Dirge of Doom because it's a rule nightmare. I'm not sure there's any table able to play it properly considering how it doesn't make any sense.

Seems fairly straightforward to me. As long you're inside the aura, you maintain the condition and it doesn't drop normally. Once you get out, the condition works normally. Is that the issue?

If that is the rules problem being referenced, then it isn't much of a nightmare. The GM just needs to make a ruling on whether the condition is an inherent part of the ability and effect, or if the effect causes a condition that persists after the ability no longer directly affects the target.

Dirge of Doom isn't the only ability with this rules edge case either. Evil Eye does it with Sickened, and Antagonize does it without magic.

It would be an easier ruling if the FAQ regarding this applied to spells and other abilities instead of just afflictions. The rule for afflictions is that if the condition itself has a way of being reduced or removed, then the condition is separate and persists beyond the end of the affliction. If the condition does not have an innate way of being removed, then it is tied to the duration of the affliction.

Lightning Raven wrote:

Seems fairly straightforward to me. As long you're inside the aura, you maintain the condition and it doesn't drop normally. Once you get out, the condition works normally. Is that the issue?

First, it's not an Aura. So the area doesn't move. As there's no clause for entering the area, only enemies inside at the time of casting get Frightened. Then, you have the never ending debate on Frightened being an ongoing effect or not and as such ending when the spell ends or not.

I bet the following answers in this topic will show nothing's straightforward in Dirge of Doom.

SuperBidi wrote:

I wouldn't take Dirge of Doom because it's a rule nightmare. I'm not sure there's any table able to play it properly considering how it doesn't make any sense.

There are some rules aspects to it which are hard to parse. Most tables I've been in just treat it like an aura. Which is technically wrong but so much simpler that they prefer it.

Either way though it is still worthwhile. Especially if you want your focus points for something other than Lingering Composition.

The Total Package wrote:

Hmm interesting, I read in a popular guide the following for Rallying Anthem "Against multiple weaker opponents (or just when you’re outnumbered), Inspire Defense is superior to Inspire Courage because the damage resistance will apply many times."

Well it will apply more often, but is that really better than defeating enemies faster?

In a fight like that, the enemies have lower attacks, save DCs, and AC. It's easier to crit them. Inspire Courage/Courageous Anthem will thus increase your crit rate even more, and there is no more effective damage prevention than "defeat the enemy faster so it doesn't get to attack at all."

Compared to 2 resistance at level 8? IMO, the best defense is a good offense in that situation.

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I also read this for Dirge of Doom "Dirge of Doom is better and times when Inspire Courage is better. If your party is doing more attack actions, stick with Inspire Courage. If the enemy is doing more attacking, use Dirge of Doom."

Frightened lowers enemy AC. Courageous Anthem increases attack. The net result of -1 AC or +1 attack is the same on your chances to hit.

Courageous Anthem can have Fortissimo used on it and Dirge can't, at which point it becomes a bigger modifier. Same thing if Frightened is going up some other way (such as via Demoralize or Fear), since Dirge doesn't stack with those and thus won't do anything while those are up.

But Dirge also lowers enemy saves so it helps casters, and Courageous Anthem doesn't do that.

I prefer Dirge of Doom because it stacks with everything but other debuffs and helps casters as well as martials and works for the enemy's attacks and their defenses which makes it both great for defense and offense.

Rallying Anthem only helps defense of your PCs.

Pronate11 wrote:

When I played my bard in stolen fates (so levels 11-20), Rallying anthem was used so much more than dirge of doom purely because of the much higher range. I had so many 60 ft+ range spells that I was rarely within 30ft of a solo boss, and in a group fight I was usually only within range for like half of them. And due to bad luck, in most of the cases where I was within 30 ft of enemies either I was halfway though a lingering composition because they where too far away at the start of the fight or the enemies happened to be mindless. It just never seemed worth it to spend actions to move that close, not use lingering composition until round 2-3, just to debuff the attack rolls and saves.

Interesting, I am also playing Stolen Fate so perhaps Rallying Anthem is the way to go.

The Total Package wrote:

Pronate11 wrote:

When I played my bard in stolen fates (so levels 11-20), Rallying anthem was used so much more than dirge of doom purely because of the much higher range. I had so many 60 ft+ range spells that I was rarely within 30ft of a solo boss, and in a group fight I was usually only within range for like half of them. And due to bad luck, in most of the cases where I was within 30 ft of enemies either I was halfway though a lingering composition because they where too far away at the start of the fight or the enemies happened to be mindless. It just never seemed worth it to spend actions to move that close, not use lingering composition until round 2-3, just to debuff the attack rolls and saves.

Interesting, I am also playing Stolen Fate so perhaps Rallying Anthem is the way to go.

To be fair, I would not be surprised if the foundry module, which has bigger maps than the standard cramped maps of every AP, played a large roll.

Gortle wrote:

There are some rules aspects to it which are hard to parse.

There are like half a dozen interpretations to it. The second the GM actually reads it the rule nightmare starts. As I play PFS, I have to state before each game with a Dirge of Doom Bard how I play it, and they are generally not happy as I follow the rules (which is PFS position on rules).

Pronate11 wrote:

The Total Package wrote:

Pronate11 wrote:

When I played my bard in stolen fates (so levels 11-20), Rallying anthem was used so much more than dirge of doom purely because of the much higher range. I had so many 60 ft+ range spells that I was rarely within 30ft of a solo boss, and in a group fight I was usually only within range for like half of them. And due to bad luck, in most of the cases where I was within 30 ft of enemies either I was halfway though a lingering composition because they where too far away at the start of the fight or the enemies happened to be mindless. It just never seemed worth it to spend actions to move that close, not use lingering composition until round 2-3, just to debuff the attack rolls and saves.

Interesting, I am also playing Stolen Fate so perhaps Rallying Anthem is the way to go.

To be fair, I would not be surprised if the foundry module, which has bigger maps than the standard cramped maps of every AP, played a large roll.

It does help, but I find some players just prefer to stay farther away if they can. If you're doing that, Rallying is better because it works at the range you naturally want to be at and will just feel better to use.

One of the challenges with a question like this is that there's no "right" answer. These are all good abilities. Which one is better depends on a pile of factors, and one of those factors is "we're using big maps so everyone is spread out more." :)